hi

[rinkuhero]

i like small communities of people who make stuff & hopefully this is one

some of you may know me, for those who don't, i'm an indie game dev

[Michaël Samyn]

Hi, Paul! Welcome!

You forgot to mention your website and your best known recent game.

So are you visiting out mere curiosity? Or do you have an active interest in developing digital entertainment without the constraints of the game format?

[Ivan]

Hey Paul! Nice to see you here.

[rinkuhero]

hi ivan & michael

So are you visiting out mere curiosity? Or do you have an active interest in developing digital entertainment without the constraints of the game format?

visiting because, as said, i've interest in small communities which create things and are supportive of the creations of each other; there are far too few of them. lately they've all been gobbled up by bigger forums like tigsource. the contests in particular looked interesting. even if i might not have time to enter them (or to enter every one) it'd at least be interesting to try out and give feedback for the other entries.

and i don't really understand the question; i'm not sure there is such a thing as "the game format". there are a lot of game formats, and i really can't think of some format that fits all games. i'd have a hard time coming up with a format that encompasses, say, both taboo: the sixth sense (a tarot reading game on the NES) and hide and go seek (the game where people hide and others look for them). what do you mean exactly by the game format? could you name some examples of digital entertainment which doesn't meet the game format, and some that does, so that i can understand what you are talking about?

[Alejandro]

Welcome, brother Paul. It is most pleasant that you have decided to join our Cult.

[Kaworu Nagisa]

Welcome, brother Paul. It is most pleasant that you have decided to join our Cult.

LOL!



Excuse me for a totally content-lacking post but... I could not resist

[Michaël Samyn]

Ah, Rinku! Always game for a good discussion! 

[God at play]

Hey Paul.   Nice to see you here.

I can't speak for Michaël, but from my POV, "games" refers to videogames - games you play only on the computer.  The "format" refers to the quantifiable outcome, or goal, that games have, in addition to certain parts of the abstract rule-based system that define games.

Case study: Bell Brothers
Echogenesis - notgame
Record Tripping - game

Obviously the world isn't black or white, but this might give you a better idea of the intention.

[rinkuhero]

i haven't heard of those particular games, could you name some games more familiar to me? or link to those games in question so that i can try them out?

i think there's a tendency for game developers and heavy gamers to call certain games 'not really a game', but i don't think we should let them have the word all to themselves, because there are plenty of things which are clearly games even though they don't have goals. it's gone so far that people have been denying the label of 'game' to games that have goals but not enough action (for instance, yume nikki, or visual novels) or even to games which have a lot of story (like metal gear solid). it's kind of ridiculous, so i just prefer to call everything played on a computer a game.

i also think this denial of the term game to games which aren't orthodox is relatively new. for instance, back in the snes era, nobody called mario paint not a game. it was a game then, yet would not be thought of as a game now.

so i guess you could say that i see this whole 'nongame' term as giving in to a small vocal minority of people who want to deny the term game to games that they don't like.

[God at play]

If you click on my Bell Brothers link above, you'll see the games linked at the bottom of the website there.  You might have missed the link; on some screens it can be hard to see this green.

Your comment about games labeling is why I think Michaël has resisted calling notgames a category and argued instead that it be considered a design method.  From that perspective, the point of my case study was to point out the different design methods being employed in the creation of videogames.  But to me, design methods and labels are pretty synonymous in this context.

I don't think anyone will resist you if you just refer to everything as games. 

[rinkuhero]

ah, didn't see, thanks, will try them out

anyway, to sort of answer michael's original question more precisely, i've made games that don't have obvious goals or game over screens or points, yes -- here's one example in flash that i made last year (you may have seen it, but i'm not sure if michael has): http://studioeres.nfshost.com/Valentine.html

i still consider that a game, though, even though others wouldn't. it's somewhat interactive (in some parts, anyway) and there are implicit goals if you look for them, even if the game doesn't tell you if you've achieved them or not.

[Kaworu Nagisa]

I've tried this one out some time ago and I loved it
I wouldn't call it a videogame myself, though. Every way has its name, or explanation. And this is the main focus of me as a person who interacts with your work. Experience is the goal here. And surprisingly, your valentine love letter is very encouraging to think about love. Much more than any interactive piece I have tried before.

[Michaël Samyn]

I have always argued in favour of a very broad definition of the word "game", especially "videogame". I still call our own work at Tale of Tales "games" despite of the purists on Destructoid et al.

But the problem that brought me to "notgames" was not semiotic at all. I came to it mostly because of the games industry. Because of its resistance to embrace the greater potential of the medium. Over the years we've been involved with games, we've seen a rise of this idea that peaked 5 or 6 years ago, followed by a long and painful decline that was hastened in an unexpected way by the success of the Wii.

I'm not content with the games industry reserving a little place for things that might not be games in the strict sense of the word. I want the games industry to change as a whole. But it seems to me now that the industry would rather go bankrupt than grow. So I'm distancing myself from it. I don't want to be caught in a niche within a niche.

Because I think this is far too important. The interactive medium should not be owned by the games industry.

[rinkuhero]

oh, yes, but being dissatisfied with how the games industry works and the games it makes are what the indie games movement is about anyway, isn't it? i mean, read the scratchware manifesto if you haven't: it calls for many of the things you just mentioned:

http://www.homeoftheunderdogs.net/scratch.php

also, do you feel the same about the other media? e.g. do you feel that hollywood is successfully running the film medium, or that the large record labels are successfully running the medium of music? it seems to be that in any media, the industry that runs it isn't doing a particularly good job. perhaps the games industry is worse than most, but its problems seem to be only different in degree from, say, hollywood or the large record companies.

oh, and @Kaworu Nagisa, thanks! much appreciated, i'm surprised anyone played it (i didn't promote it much)

[God at play]

I played Valentine, and I enjoyed it too   A good way to explore something complex from different perspectives.