Notgames Forum
April 28, 2024, 10:16:35 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Motion Control and Immersion  (Read 13609 times)
ghostwheel

Posts: 584



View Profile WWW
« on: July 11, 2010, 10:46:08 AM »

Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on immersion (or lack therof) and motion controls: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/7794-Extra-Punctuation-On-Kinect-and-PlayStation-Move
Logged

Irony is for cowards.
Utforska

Posts: 65


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 11:08:35 AM »

Same kind of argument that erroneously dooms iPad and other touch screens. "I'm a serious computer user/gamer and I do work/play games with a keyboard and mouse/buttoned controller, I couldn't possibly do serious work/play on this new interface". What they miss is that there are six billion people on this planet, the majority of whom aren't serious gamers or dependent on keyboard shortcuts.

I'm all for more natural interfaces, whether they're about direct manipulation or about natural movement. It's not a gimmick. The 1:1 translation of the users actions makes it so much easier to get into. That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for the current type of interfaces as well, they both serve their respective purpose well.

And what's up with his sick, violent fantasies? I hope they're jokes...
Logged
ghostwheel

Posts: 584



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 08:47:51 PM »

Same kind of argument that erroneously dooms iPad and other touch screens. "I'm a serious computer user/gamer and I do work/play games with a keyboard and mouse/buttoned controller, I couldn't possibly do serious work/play on this new interface". What they miss is that there are six billion people on this planet, the majority of whom aren't serious gamers or dependent on keyboard shortcuts.

I'm all for more natural interfaces, whether they're about direct manipulation or about natural movement. It's not a gimmick. The 1:1 translation of the users actions makes it so much easier to get into. That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for the current type of interfaces as well, they both serve their respective purpose well.

And what's up with his sick, violent fantasies? I hope they're jokes...

Sick violent fantasies? You don't play many first person shooters, do you?

Anyway, I agree with him. They are gimmicks. When I'm playing a game, I don't want to jump around like an idiot just because my avatar is.
Logged

Irony is for cowards.
Utforska

Posts: 65


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 06:03:06 PM »

Sick violent fantasies? You don't play many first person shooters, do you?
Not really... are you expected to enjoy committing genocide if you do, or what?

I agree with part of what he says - that the ultimate and inevitable goal of immersive technology is the direct senses-computer-brain interface that could render virtual worlds indistiguishable from the real world. But I can't understand his conclusion that until we have that type of tech, those interfaces we came up with back in the 70's will continue to trump everything.
Logged
ghostwheel

Posts: 584



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 07:44:21 PM »

Sick violent fantasies? You don't play many first person shooters, do you?
Not really... are you expected to enjoy committing genocide if you do, or what?

I agree with part of what he says - that the ultimate and inevitable goal of immersive technology is the direct senses-computer-brain interface that could render virtual worlds indistiguishable from the real world. But I can't understand his conclusion that until we have that type of tech, those interfaces we came up with back in the 70's will continue to trump everything.

I really don't know what genocide or sick violent fantasies you mean. He mentions killing in FPS. I don't see anything about genocide.

Anyway, it's a bit like building a better mousetrap. The ones we have are efficient, inexpensive and work. It's difficult to improve on something that works very well already. Gamepads work quite well. They've gotten more ergonomic and more buttons but no one has come up with a better way to get maximum performance with as efficient of movement as a gamepad and/or mouse. They new movement-based interfaces are more complex, expensive and inefficient. I like technological progress too but just because it's new doesn't make it better.
Logged

Irony is for cowards.
Albin Bernhardsson

Posts: 141



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 04:25:21 AM »

All new technology starts off as complex, expensive and inefficient.
Logged
Utforska

Posts: 65


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 11:25:43 AM »

It says right there in the article: "Plugging your brain into a virtual world that you see with your own eyes, feel beneath your own feet, and commit genocide upon its inhabitants with a napalm launcher in your own hands." I guess it's a joke, but it's a bit too close to what those games are like to be much fun imo.

The different interfaces are good for different things. Most button based games are very binary in the control mechanics - you press one button to do a certain action, but it's performed the exact same way every time. It's do or don't do. With a motion controller, you have the possibility to do more analog movements - do something half the way, faster, slower, etc. His model of "thought → large movement → however long it takes for the console to register that movement → action" doesn't hold up if the game gets it right. It would start to work on the action as soon as you start your movement, and then let the action follow along with what you do.

But of course it's not a good idea to try and cram the types of games that have developed around the button model into this new interface without any modifications. A game like Super Mario is based completely around the button pressing mechanics, and wouldn't be as much fun if you had to control the characters analog-ously. Much like playing chess with a keyboard is pretty worthless.

Then there's also the problem of buttons being anonymous. So why should I press A and not B to get the map? Why is B + X + Left + C a roundhouse kick? How am I supposed to figure that out anyway? This is actually quite a big hurdle to get over before you can enjoy a game, and I'd guess that's part of why Guitar Hero is so popular - the specially designed controller clearly shows what each button is for. Motion controllers still have buttons, but they get a little bit closer to a natural interface.
Logged
Michaël Samyn

Posts: 2042



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 12:16:51 PM »

Gamepads work quite well.

If you've ever seen a novice gamer fumble around with a gamepad -or even a mouse for that matter- you'll know that this is extremely subjective. Gamepads are far from intuitive or comfortable to the unaccustomed player.

That being said, the current motion controllers seem a bit "coarse" to me. What I like about a gamepad is that it is small and subtle. And the experienced user can really establish very precise control with minute motions of the fingers and wrists. The current motion controllers seem to lack such subtlety. But maybe that's because the hardware manufacturers lack the imagination to see how these devices could be used to capture anything other than sports and fitness-type movements.

I want a motion controller that allows me to control a game like I would smoke a fine cigar or drink a strong coffee from a delicate porcelain cup or gently stroke the skin of a lover. A controller that allows for elegance and subtlety. That allows me to feel elegant and subtle and that is not limited by my actual physical skills. Maybe this is possible with the current generation. Maybe it's a matter of software. If so, let's hope the right developers get a chance to explore the potential.
Logged
ghostwheel

Posts: 584



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 03:38:15 PM »

Quote
I want a motion controller that allows me to control a game like I would smoke a fine cigar or drink a strong coffee from a delicate porcelain cup or gently stroke the skin of a lover. A controller that allows for elegance and subtlety. That allows me to feel elegant and subtle and that is not limited by my actual physical skills.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I also think that that is what Yahtzee is saying as well. Not so much in this article but in other articles and his videos he's been consistently critical of the lack of subtlety and the inaccuracy of the Wii. Motion control might be the future but I think it has a few iterations to go before it overtakes gamepads or mouse/keyboard controls.
Logged

Irony is for cowards.
Kjell

Posts: 129


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 04:38:04 PM »

All controllers are motion controllers. A gamepad just uses a different technique to record motion than a camera based system.

Quote
I want a motion controller that allows me to control a game like I would smoke a fine cigar or drink a strong coffee from a delicate porcelain cup or gently stroke the skin of a lover.

Exactly, humans primarily use their hands for physical interaction. Using locomotion makes more sense in a social / emotional setting ( although face + voice are more significant ).

Quote
If you've ever seen a novice gamer fumble around with a gamepad -or even a mouse for that matter- you'll know that this is extremely subjective. Gamepads are far from intuitive or comfortable to the unaccustomed player.

Touchscreen is probably the most intuitive ( mass-market ) interface there is at the moment.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:40:23 PM by Kjell » Logged
Michaël Samyn

Posts: 2042



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 05:44:19 PM »

All controllers are motion controllers. A gamepad just uses a different technique to record motion than a camera based system.

I think there's a difference, though.
Some controllers require a very specific motion. They dictate the motion you need to make. A keyboard is an extreme example of this.
Other controllers do simply register whatever motion you are making, without dictating or expecting anything (apart perhaps from not leaving a certain area). Like a motion capture system used in animation would. Then it's up to the software to process that data.

In other words: simple controllers are made to the benefit of relatively simple computer systems. They produce very little data. In the case of the keyboard a single bit: on or off, in the case of a joystick: two float numbers from -1 to 1, e.g., representing the x and y axis, in the case of a mouse, two integers representing the pixel location of the cursor.

But motion capture produces a lot more data. In its raw state, this data is useless. Everything stands or falls with how this data is processed by the software. In a way, the current presentation of motion control usage seem like a transition phase: the hardware is now capable of capturing a large diversity of input. But the software systems are still very simple and thus they need to dictate the user how to move. This happens to be very compatible with traditional, "sportive" videogame design, in which players need to perform very specific tasks that are then measured against an ideal outcome and scored.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 05:47:00 PM by Michaël Samyn » Logged
Kjell

Posts: 129


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 08:56:43 PM »

Quote
.. simple controllers are made to the benefit of relatively simple computer systems. They produce very little data. In the case of the keyboard a single bit ..



Wink
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!