Notgames Forum

Capitalsism, do your work!

(Schlossgarten, Stuttgart)... what you don't know is that many of those trees were 150 years and older
(http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/122862/original/Grohe_Luftbilder_Schlosspark_4.jpg?1329739385)

I'm not familiar with the project shown here in these photos. I don't see what the age of the trees have to do with anything. I don't have a problem with capitalism. I do have a problem with capitalism as an excuse to be amoral.

Unless you are a jedi master, people get attached to things or even trees. Many old folks here knew their trees for more than 50-60 years. A 200 years old tree is something completely different than a 10 years old tree. Maybe not for bureaucrats or capitalists. But there is a difference, when you stand in front of that old tree. (go ask some hobbits)

Capitalism has become a cancer (in my opinion).

I don't have a problem with murder. But I do have a problem when it's used to kill people.  ;D

I don't know what alternative you think there is to money and trade. The alternative to capitalism is a dictatorship. Controlling trade to the point of eliminating it, you basically have a powerful government to control everything. Laws restrict freedom. You can't argue the contrary.

And capitalism doesn't kill people. That's a straw man argument.

The point, I presume, was that capitalism is inherently amoral. And... well... capitalism kinda does kill people. :p

Money and trade are not exclusive to capitalism.

If we postulate, that there are no alternatives, then of course we will never develop alternatives. That was the same logic
applied to the Schlossgarten. They told us: Listen up, there are no alternatives to destroying the park. And of course, people presented alternatives (but those people don't count in our society).

Communism was an alternative. Fascism was as well. Those didn't work out too well, did they? Maybe you think everyone will be nice to each other, be fair and share everything equally. But then, maybe monkeys might fly out of my butt. This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be nice to each other. However, people are selfish, difficult, and unpredictable to a certain extent. You have to deal with how people really behave, not try to force them to be something they can never be. That is the problem with idealism, it never takes reality into account.

I am glad that I live in a reality where bs(*) like this is the order of the day  :P


(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21125031/bs2.PNG)



(*) bullshit

It is not idealism, to look for alternatives...

Are you suggesting that open trade between individuals was the cause of this demolition, rather than Stuttgart's apparently uncaring (and presumably elected) city council?


Capitalism doesn't kill people, power kills people. :)

Surely both are to blame?

Sorry if I sounded facetious. But I do think that the problem is unrestrained capitalism, rather than capitalism as such.

By which I mean, I see the great advantages of private ownership, creation of goods for profit, competition in markets and voluntary exchange. The problem with capitalism in the extreme liberal sense is that a corporation can use world-wide funds to 'outbuy' a local space, or that someone can never rise high enough to receive the chances capitalism offers; or that a single person can be thought of as 'no value' within a larger system. But I think these are social problems which need social solutions (government, &c). I do not think you can think of any system which could replace capitalism without inducing more problems. Will you remove private property? Prohibit the accumulation of wealth? Will my company be government-run and will I have to write government-favourable narratives to receive funding, rather than appealing to what-ever minority of world-wide audience I may find?

I maintain the problem is full liberalism, not capitalism. Just like "politics" is not 'the problem', it is the system within which there is a problem, but without which we would have even more problems (unrestrained anarchy).

Capitalism, as tends to be championed, is also an unachievable idealism.  It is built from this mythos that if you do a hard day's work, you will get a just reward for it, and that whatever you achieve is justified by the work that you must have put in to get there.  Unfortunately, this leads to a hideously warped view of reality, since things just don't work that way.  They key point is that any system we create to steer our societies toward some common goal will always have the disadvantage of being somewhat counter to natural human behavior - else you would never need to create a system for it in the first place.  And if that system is too open (like, the free market being too free, for example), then it will tend to revert toward the natural human state, where might makes right, the strong take advantage of the weak, etc.  Of course, it's even worse than that, because human behavior evolved within a small group tribal structure - the massive civilizations we have today could not operate under those kinds of evolved behaviors.

That being said, capitalism is the best structure humans have come up with so far.  But it does need to be disentangled from the mythos and restrained in intelligent ways or it becomes as much a vehicle for nefarious work as any other system created and then subverted by mankind from the dawn of time.

In regards to the trees:  I frequently dream of a day when beauty will be as important to society as anything else.  How uplifting it would be.  I frequently drive around L.A. imagining what it would be like if all the architecture was fantastical and majestic.  Last summer I moved into an apartment with a beautiful view of a protected nature area.  The difference it makes to my attitude and demeanor on a daily basis cannot be overstated.

I agree with Jeroen that the urgent problem is (neo)liberalism.

I disagree that capitalism is the best that humans can do. But I will leave the analysis of it to Mr Marx, who did a fine job, unrelated to the mess certain politicians have caused inspired by his work.

Liberalism seems to imply a belief that freedom leads to happiness for all. At this point, this belief must have turned into some kind of religion considering the obvious and factual misery on this planet. We do not need another ideology, another belief system. We just need start to caring about this planet and the people on it. And use our enormous intellect to fix the problems. And if we can't do that, we deserve nothing better than the total annihilation we're heading towards.

Everything becomes a religion.  That's just how people work.  Shockingly few people seem to have the cognitive wherewithal to lift their snouts from the slop bucket long enough to see the forest instead of the trees. (a jumbled metaphor, I hope you all get the point)

If I was king of the world, I would make cognitive bias( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases) ) be a required school subject for every human being.  I have always felt like that bit of self-understanding would make everyone that much more civil, non-destructive, and reasonable, to great benefit for all.

once upon a time, I had this idea that everyones time should be valued as equal. Consequences would be that a janitor would earn the same money like a CEO or that an engineer would earn the same money as a nurse in a hospital. Why? Because everyones time is equal... once upon a time.

People are not equal. So everybody's time is not equal. Some people are more talented, more intelligent. We should find a way to encourage them, to support them, so they can achieve what they can. Because the achievements of others pull us all up.

Currently, the opposite is happening: everything is pulled down to the lowest level. And the only talent that is rewarded is a talent for buying and selling unscrupulously. That's not only wrong. It's also stupid. It prevents our species from becoming what we can.

Well, everyone's time as beings on this earth is equal - but the fruits of their labor is not.  If you can figure out how to reconcile the two, then you're a step or two or ten ahead of the rest of humanity.

this is the point...

And it follows (I believe), that every work is equally important. My work is not more important than the work of a janitor or the cleaning person. People love to think, their work is more important than that of others...  It is the same like saying ants or insects are not important, who needs spiders? I think that idea is related to Gandhi's Tolstoy farm....

if we pay people less than other people, those less paid people are basically serving other people. I don't think that people should be servants to other poeple.

Time is equally valuable to everybody and should be paid the same. I have no problem with that, I would be happy if a nurse in a hospital would earn the same money as I do or vice versa. Then people could concentrate on more important stuff ...

Ideally money should not even exist. But I have a suspicion that without the work/leisure treadmill, many people would not be able to have a satisfying life. I guess they could learn. But such education would take quite a bit of effort. Freedom doesn't provide for this.

People will never be satisfied. Once you have attained a lot of money, to a point where some people would say you reached the top, the inner voice will say: You need more, more, more. And this is of course moreso with most rich people (sorry for generalizing), once you tasted more, you only want more still.
The inner Slave-Driver always tells you that you need more. And the inner Perfectionist always tells you that what you made/do is not good enough. It's the art of not listening to these illusions.
I agree ideally money should not even exist. The only way to have a satisfying life is not wanting any.
For me money is something to survive in society and to spend to have fun with other people, and give away for as much I can offer.
Not a single material investment will make you really happy, maybe for a slight moment, and some things are pure functional, but again: It won't give you true, sincere joy.
Making other people happy is what makes one really happy. So to me, that's what money is for.