Notgames Forum

Couldn't help but post this for anyone who has not yet read the comments for this brief report on the concluding panel at Indie Games Summit, GDC Europe.

http://indiegames.com/2011/08/gdc_europe_european_indies_wil.html (http://indiegames.com/2011/08/gdc_europe_european_indies_wil.html)

Will probably do a more thorough write-up on some issues the hateful commenters have touched on. Mostly, I cannot feel other than the rhetorical side-effects back-firing somewhat here leaving the original message by Samyn and Grip watered-down and completely misunderstood. In short, can we approach a wider games medium without a "revolution" so to speak with all its jargon and anti-culture, or can we subtly incorporate elements into the mainstream?

ToT is always going to get shit from the 8-bit corpse fuckers and those who can't imagine art with any emotional depth. I'd say over half of the comments are positive. Their stuff is divisive. I think Michael and Auriea know this. Plus, people are always going to act like assholes on the internet. So fuck it if they don't like it.

I do think it's funny a few people are calling them hipsters. I think it's probably illegal in most western countries to be a hipster over the age of 25. ;)

There is a good comment about mechanics from a "Briker Ed." I do think he's right about mechanics insofar as they relate to how you experience a work of interactive art. That is important. If that isn't executed properly, it can work against your goals as an artist.

I think 'massive hate' is a huge exaggeration. As ghostwheel said, there seem to be just as many positive comments on Tale of Tales' work as there are negative.

They're all missing the point, though. This is not about Tale of Tales or their work. It's about the entire European game industry (and the potential of video games). Who says it is irrelevant.

I noticed the same sorts of back and forth comments on some similar articles on Gamasutra.  I think it just boils down to the simple fact that for many of the unwashed masses, appreciation of higher art forms is simply alien to their mode of existence, in the same way that many people don't appreciate traditional fine art, or even read books for that matter.  The problem is these people are the types that are unable to leave well enough alone; they have an undeserved sense of ownership of the medium and feel they should have the power to declare what is what.  The "corpse fuckers" are mindless and want you to be mindless too.  They narcissistically assume we are making games for them and failing.  Unlike traditional arts, we don't have an artistic history in this medium that people will respect (though the traditional arts have their own problems, granted).

I'm optimistic, though.  This style of expression is a work in progress.  It will get stronger, and it will find its audience, and people will get bent out of shape about it less and less.

I would give my opinion on this, as I certainly never heard Michael say this, but that I did not hear him say this is only logical, as according to this article, Dan nor Heater nor I were there.

Though as a PS; the discussion on indiegames is pointless as it does not refer to anything Michael said. The people there are not even wrong in their responses, per se, but they are responding to an utter fallacy of journalism.

 :D

I don't read the comments on indiegames.com anymore because there's a bunch of people there who simply hate us. It's like they are allergic to the name Tale of Tales and hearing it causes them to vomit involuntarily. I do wish them well.

Just for the record, both Thomas and myself were misquoted in this article.
What I said was that I felt that the efforts to turn video-games into a mature medium seem to be more apparent among European independent developers than anywhere else. And when wondering about why that may be, I proposed that perhaps the relative lack of commercial success of the mainstream industry on the continent might allow for more room for a more experimental, author-driven approach. This is pure speculation on my part.

As for Thomas, he said that breaking any link in the the vicious chain of presenting and consuming video-games as toys (rather than media) would suffice to start breaking the entire chain. It can start with the publishers, the gamers, the developers, the marketeers. It doesn't matter.

At least that's how I remember it all. It's possible that we phrased things badly and were misunderstood for this reason. But given, indeed, that the reporter simply ignored the presence of Jeroen Stout, Heather Kelley and Dan Pinchbeck on the panel (in favour of the "cameo" by Kellee Santiago), I'd say we're simply the victims of sloppy journalism here.

Not that I expect the "8-bit corpse fuckers" :) to appreciate what we are trying to do (yet). We are clearly their enemy and they know that. We want to do something else with this medium than what they expect of it. This doesn't mean that they won't be able to enjoy any of the results of this work. But that will take time. Until then, let's ignore the trolls. :)

I also thought there was a lot missed in that summary, especially the failure to mention over half of the people that spoke.

Then again, press is often after simple one-liners. For example, when joystiq talked about my talk the headline was that we had sold 400k units. Which I thought was not really the most important part :) Dunno if this simply because the press do not think their audience care, that the press people are not interested, or that the current audience really simply does not care, or what ever combination.

As for comments. Well, people who hate something are always more likely to write. And I know from experience that people like to read a headline and then imagine themselves what the article said. Happened to me a lot with some blog entries I had at Gamasutra.

I don't mean to be a fun-hater or speak for anyone else, and I know that people are stirred up over it, but I personally think this comment, and its continued use, is a little out-of-line. Not using the f-word, but what that usage is intended to do, I guess.

Maybe just try to have the perspective of coming back to this thread 5 years from now, especially those of you who are helping 2011 to become a turning point for videogames. I usually try to do something like that, after which I almost always delete whatever passionate comment I want to make at the time, heh.

I certainly say a lot of things I regret and I know this comment is provocative and additionally, I don't hate all retro touches. But there's just too damn much of it. If someone reads this 5 years from now, so what? They'll know I wasn't happy with all the pixelart and chiptune crap indies churn out. Ask any of the regulars in #tigirc and they will tell you I make my feelings known on this matter. I won't delete it, sorry.

Hey that's all right, I'm not asking you to delete it. I just wanted to put in my two cents. Carry on.

I thought it was funny.
And the extremity of the expression speaks of anger and frustration. Over attitudes that are holding back a medium that we so desperately are trying to advance. The expression is crude, I agree, but I do believe that indie nostalgia is far more counter-productive than AAA cinema envy -and that while it's the indies who are supposed to be out there, on the barricades, taking risks, etc.